'Тс' already sounds like 'Ть' so why is there a soft sign there? Do I pronounce them both like a soft T?
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Is the question about verb endings? – Artemix Jul 29 '14 at 3:38
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The following is incorrect: "Тс' already sounds like 'Ть' " - these two are pronounced as "цц". Смеются произносится как "Смеюцца", смеяться произносится как "смеяцца" – A-K Jul 29 '14 at 18:39
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@Artemix: the original question was: "ть" already sounds like "тс" - because unfortunately some sites teach that soft [t] is pronounced [ts]. So the OP's question began with that misconception. Thus your edit makes no sense and his question (in theory) makes no sense. A less confusing questions (that won't confuse new readers) would be: Why does the verb ending -ться have a soft sign, and how is it pronounced? – CocoPop Jul 30 '14 at 14:45
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@CocoPop I do not agree with you. I just added dashes to show that question is about endings. In fact it is a common mistake for native speakers as well. Most answers posted prior to my edit are about verb endings. It's a pity that OP does not react nor to comments, nor to answers. – Artemix Jul 30 '14 at 19:35
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There is no difference in pronunciation but "ь" is kept merely for the sake of consistency.
You see, most infinitives end in "-ть". And the 3rd person singular/plural end in -т :
- to love = любить
- he loves = он любит
And now, the magic! To form a reflexive verb form you add 'сь' after a vowel and 'ся' after a consonant. So....
- говорить + ся = говориться
- говорит + ся = говорится
- женят + ся = женятся
The pair "говориться/говорится" indeed sounds exactly the same because it so happens that 3rd person singular for many "-ить" verbs of the И-conjugation differs from the infinitive only by the hardness of the last consonant.
Actually ь is there to indicate the infinitive. However, there is no distinction in pronunciation between -ться and -тся : they're both pronounced -тца.
смея́ться - [сме•я́т•ца] infinitive
смеётся - [сме•йо́т•ца] 3rd p. sing.
смеются - [сме•ю́т•ца] 3rd p. pl.
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Thanks. Haven't gotten into verb aspects much but I remember the infinitive part about 'ть'. – ProgrammingDreamer Jul 29 '14 at 0:06
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This actually has nothing to do with aspect; it's phonetic, not grammatical - both perfective and imperfective verbs have these endings. – CocoPop Jul 30 '14 at 14:39
It's mostly grammatical and as correctly stated above "ться" usually indicates the infinitive. It is relatively simple to catch the rule by using the following cheat:
- If the word answers the "что делать" question use "ться".
- If the word answers the "что делает / -ют" question you use "тся".
Yes, if there's "ь" in the question word, feel free to use "ться", and the opposite - if there's no "ь" in the question, use тся.
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1Yes, this is the way how pupils are taught in Russian schools. But it seems to me that such mnemonics are suitable for native speakers only. – Artemix Jul 30 '14 at 7:32
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I am not native speaker and this "cheat" sounds perfectly suitable for me. ;) Requires certain language proficiency, but still. – Rilakkuma Jul 30 '14 at 7:54
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1Ah, I see :) In fact there are many native speakers on Russian.SE (including myself) and I thought you may be one of them. It's good that this "cheat" works for non-native speakers, because there are some language features that are intuitive for natives (like pairs of verbs of different aspect) and should be learnt by heart by others. – Artemix Jul 30 '14 at 10:37
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1This cheat is more confusing that the original question! This looks like it would only work if you were Russian. – CocoPop Jul 30 '14 at 14:49
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Well I am not Russian however I learned it during teenager years and find this explanation clear. I am sorry if it does not work for you. – Rilakkuma Jul 30 '14 at 16:00
Some native russian have troubles with "-тся"/"-ться" too. So we have special site for that: http://tsya.ru/
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Neither your post nor that site you are linking to answers the question in any way. – Dmitry Alexandrov Oct 14 '14 at 3:18
